Long-distance telephone lines generally stay put for as long as it is economically feasible to maintain them over their (century-estimated?) lifespan. Honestly, copper wire has served the planet well for 150 years of telephony. It isn’t going anywhere or “jumping out of the ground.” In places it might die quietly from lack of maintenance but it isn’t going to be actively dug up (frequently).

I love that “digging scars” can be seen in 3DEP data, neat-o!

This is awesome! Talk about a “project in a box,” this one has tasty tidbits and is wrapped in pretty paper. Presentable, prepare-able, proceed!

Wow, I saw you on https://weeklyosm.eu/archives/17115 and must gush at what fantastic community and mapping I see being built here! Seriously impressive, everybody. Go, OSM!

Ewrt: It’s true that to make a proposal after a couple of months of mapping is indeed bold. Many of the histories of how and why the tagging has evolved to what it is today are fairly complex and have emerged with a great deal of back-and-forth negotiation between many OSM Contributors in the process of forging consensus. I can easily agree that this makes them difficult to understand for a newcomer.

Again, while you may be experiencing hurt feelings — and that is perfectly understandable — the processes OSM takes to “improve ourselves” (our map, really, maybe only tangentially “us as people”) are sometimes lengthy, sometimes complex and greatly benefit by a long view of the histories of many kinds of taggings: it can take some time to get up to speed as to “why things are the way they are.” But please take heart, nobody here means to “attack YOU.” We do wish to educate you that our ecosystem does hold together, with sensibilities running rather high most of the time, but on occasion there are sticky points (even after years) and things-which-easily-confuse-many.

What we do about this is to keep talking amongst ourselves, with open minds (and open hearts) and no ill will towards one another. OSM is an education process, and we are all constantly learning here, every single one of us. Keep reading (wiki, discussion forums…), keep asking (us, here, no question is too silly), keep mapping your very best. If/as something goes wrong, we hope that the way that we correct each other is gentle enough to be effective, but not so brutal that we (needlessly) hurt the feelings of others, that is not our intention.

Really awesome work to reduce TIGER noise, Matt, thank you! I’m glad to see comments and suggestions from others, too.

It might sound simplistic, but one thing that I’ve found can be a helpful strategy is to have (or make) a county-wide wiki page (can be linked from one of the 50 state wikis we already have) and therein provide a link to an Overpass Turbo (OT) query that identifies all tiger_reviewed=no nodes and ways in the wiki (like my county wiki does, see here https://osm.org/wiki/Santa_Cruz_County,_California#Work_to_be_done_in_the_County); webpage text-search for Overpass.

OT’s geocodeArea:County Name}}->.searchArea; directive makes specifying “where” pretty easy — that countywide OT search is only 10 lines long and has a generous timeout of 60 seconds which is never reached. True, it does take (usually local OSM volunteers) to do the work once the data are identified, but that’s always the case for TIGER cleanup.

I’ve estimated it might take until the late 2030s or 2040s to fully clean up our TIGER noise, but over the last 15 years, it’s clear we are doing a steady job of bringing it in for a landing. Smarter strategies like those identified here will only help!

Kai: This is impressive research and the fruits of your excellent results here might next turn into a wiki page that “eases into” an early version of a Proposal.

That way, others can edit in the wiki itself (or using its Talk page for Discussion) and you’ll have robust dialog beyond these Diary entries of yours — which are a great first step! I see you are going to turn this into a “general wiki page,” which is a great next step, though I’d encourage you to be thinking along the lines of Proposal sooner rather than later. (But not until it’s actually “ready,” of course).

In the software development (and quality assurance / testing, and release to the public…) world — my professional background — what you have here is a solid “mid-development” (maybe late-development) version, as it has some question marks, blank spots and so on. That’s not a criticism, just an observation. When you think it is at what might be called an “early alpha,” where the “essential features are complete,” I’d move this to what you specify as at least that wiki you mention, if not an early Proposal (in the OSM wiki way we do things), noting that wide participation for improvement and “fill in the blanks” (with what OTHERS know, or what is relevant for landforms in parts of the world of OTHERS…) is quite welcome. You’ll likely get an even wider dataset (though, this one is pretty amazing already). Plus, with a well-structured proposal that gets Approval, adding additional tags in the wild is fairly straightforward, you can actually simply “do this,” but having the Approval gives these tags firm ground to stand on.

Eventually, you and the community will have taken it to a state of “beta,” where there are no (major) omissions, only relatively minor tweaking is left to do, “the door is closing” for any real substantial changes, and you can “fine tune” it into a ready-to-be-voted-upon Proposal. (Going from beta to “final”). I think this will add real depth and strength to OSM’s data, and worldwide, too.

Based on what I see here, I’d personally likely vote for Approval, but of course, I’d have to see the actual Proposal. Wishing you the best!

Yes, having a more complete set of platforms is key to OSM’s completion of route=train relations. Often, “basic infrastructure” of rail is complete (or mostly complete) in OSM with railway=rail ways, often/usually collected into route=railway relations. These are fine to describe the “rough outlines” of a freight and/or passenger rail network, but without stations, and ESPECIALLY platforms, a passenger rail network is stunted by only being able to be fully expressed in OSM as a public_transport:version=1 route=train (or =tram, =subway, =light_rail…) relations.

After giving a talk in 2016 at SOTM-US (Seattle), I created a MapRoulette task (https://maproulette.org/browse/challenges/429) to add over 5000 platforms to the USA (Earth’s largest rail network). I sort of forgot about this, but when I came back years later to visit the task, I was amazed at how well it was completed by intrepid OSM volunteers! And while passenger rail in the USA has its “20th century” aspects to it, OSM’s reflection of it continues to get better and better, thanks to the many platforms that have been added and additional station data info (and amenities, and connections, etc.).

Europe, North America, Asia, South America, Africa, Australia…rail (especially passenger rail, routing and amenities) continues to get better and better in OSM. We have a ways to go, it will take years yet into the future to really “complete” this, but OSM has been getting much better in entering, completing and refining such data. Serious thanks to all who map (rail, especially!) in OSM!

Finally, there are certainly other Mississippi-based OSM folks around you. Check out https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Nearby_users and Pascal’s Diary entry here https://neis-one.org/2013/01/oooc/ for additional resources and ideas.

MoiraPrime: As I have family and friends who are on the spectrum and/or also have significant developmental disabilities, I gleaned a touch of trepidation from you somewhat, so much so that after I clicked the “Comment” button here, I regretted a bit that I sent you the suggestion that you plan a Mapping Party. When you talked about your university community connections, a MP was my natural go-to, but I 100% realize that not everybody is cut-out to host such an event. It’s actually “standing pretty tall” for just about anybody to do, I myself often have a “large gulp moment” before I even ATTEND such events! I’m not agoraphobic or a complete shut-in but the pandemic has heightened my naturally-introverted nature and it is an effort to be “social-professional” even as a MP attendee. And it’s true, I don’t attend as many MPs as I’d actually like to, I’m getting better at that (there are regular such events in San José I plan on attending this year).

As you are most certainly able to “draw a box around the problem” (of the specific needs for TIGER Review in Mississippi), AND you have done a great job of that right here, AND you are “reaching out” to the greater community, AND you have those “university connections,” what I might (further) suggest is that you continue to seek ways to reach out to the greater non-OSM community (perhaps starting with your geo-savvy university connections, that’s fertile ground) and “bring them into the fold” of OSM. You could share your excitement about how neat OSM is, get them excited about it, watch one or two people’s face light up as they see within a few minutes of their simple “add a building” or “name the tennis courts” (or whatever) as this becomes a real, tangible thing on the map (OSM’s web-page Carto display). Then, when they are “hooked,” (it’s easy to happen, and wonderful when it does!) you can show them how much needs doing for TIGER Cleanup, and mention “one person can’t do this alone, but we can do it together.” With actions like those, you build traction and forward momentum.

That’s a pretty good effort, and you can put whatever spin on it that suits you.

Whatever your efforts become, I can see your good intentions clear as daytime from here (I’m in California). I wish you the best in these, as whatever they might become (you alone or you plus others) our shared map fabric will improve — and that’s terrific growth in OSM.

TIGER data are rather widely acknowledged to be (in the very worst of cases), “not much better than an hallucination.” (Thank you to Kevin Kenny @ke9tv for that quote). Sometimes, they are “not too bad, need minor correction” or more rarely, are perfectly OK “as is.”

In short, feel quite generous in how much correction you might apply to really stinky-wrong TIGER data, since in many places they really do need rather significant, serious Review and Clean-up.

MoiraPrime, once again, I offer kudos and deep gratitude to you for such a well-written Diary entry that quite comprehensively “spells things out” as you did: nice!

Awesome! I like it when these sorts of connections happen. Charlotte throws a great deal of shoulder into OSM!

MoiraPrime, if you decide on a Mapping Party (it is about the most “roll your own thing” I’ve ever encountered), may it go well. Good things happening in Mississippi, it’s clear to see! A bit of musing in a Diary and look, everyone.

Oh, man, that’s a potential gold mine. Well, at least silver.

Look into the kind-of old-fashioned activity in OSM known as a Mapping Party. Offer to host one of these (ideally, a month or three before the yearly GIS convention, so that you can springboard topics that come up from the MP into possible convention speaking topics — I’ve given talks at these kinds of things, it can be a bit intimidating, but it isn’t hard) and try to get people from the geography department to really commit to coming to the MP (so you are not disappointed with the small turnout). Make the MP an “Introduction to OSM” and be prepared to answer all sorts of questions about the project, from beginner to intermediate to advanced, and have a few “springboard topics” ready-to-go for future MPs or the GIS convention, just in case you can see the passion ignite. I can tell (from you, you seem like a natural) you’ll likely get a roaring fire burning. Really, these kinds of things almost “write themselves,” all you need to do is plant good seeds, be a good resource to answer questions and then give people some encouragement (“you got this, go finish that in a month and I’ll buy you a coffee or a beer!”) and before you know it, you’ve got a pretty neat community in OSM. This isn’t necessarily easy, and you will have to change gears in unexpected ways, just remain flexible and “this could go in a hundred directions” and see where it takes you. Most of all, you’ll discover that people really identify with the “I simply want to help make a worldwide map become better” and that’s the rocket fuel that makes it self-sustaining, will less and less effort on your part (and your leadership skills to introduce people) and it then goes under its own power. Go!

Right you are! But here’s what I have discovered: when people DO get introduced to OSM (to do a “pet” project of theirs you’ve introduced them to, to get them interested, like ‘add all libraries in the county’ or ‘add all off-road motorcycle trails my buddies and I can ride on the weekend’ or whatever), you get them interested not only in the map (data), but in improving the rest of it, as well. Not everybody will turn into one of these “sticks around” Contributors, but enough that you generate growth in an area.

When they see how much fun it is to map their “pet” data, they’ll see the old, crufty stuff as the “chore” that it is and know that throwing a little shoulder into the efforts it takes to clean it up is essentially on THIER shoulders (too) and they’ll become part of the solution. Again, this “stickiness” of recruiting people doesn’t turn EVERYbody into one of these longer-term Contributors, but as you know, the passion is a bit infectious, and you will get some, and they’ll tell two friends, and THEY’LL tell two friends, and OSM just grows like that.

Keep it up!

MoiraPrime, this is really awesome! Yes, it sounds like “community building” is what’s going to do this. I think you are on the right track: you have (quite well) sketched-out the scope of the “problem” (rather LARGE!) and clearly have a great deal of passion to move ahead TIGER Review and Clean-up in Mississippi.

There are good suggestions, like schools and colleges/universities, where I myself have some good rapport / results in community engagement (at my alma mater of the University of California) and you can do this by putting up posters / flyers, contacting student groups that might have overlap (like computer science people for more technically-oriented stuff or Community Studies for things like “let’s get all the libraries in” or “let’s map all the senior-citizen facilities” kinds of stuff). When community-building in OSM (I have found), “the more nails you hammer, the more community you will build!” You can do this with outdoors-y oriented groups (those who camp, fish, hunt…for example) you can do this with elementary school students who are learning new Internet-oriented skills (including being a “good social member” in a community-based project like OSM) on doing simple things like micro-mapping their school or neighborhood / city. You can do this with cycling groups to better map cycling infrastructure and bicycle routes, you can do this with people who want to see good public transit (trains, busses) routes in OSM…the list of possibilities is infinite.

Good luck and keep up your passionate spirit, this is what really fuels OSM!

I freakin’ love stuff like this! What dedication! Go, OSM!

Ah, I see. Thanks for the clarification. I could see how a brand-new housing development might have both: a name=* tag (say, name=Green Hills Estates) AND something like operator=Brod Home Builders (which is a bit odd, but I could see it being both possible and legally accurate). Sort of like how a HOA works (in some cases), when the homes are all sold, the operator=* is no longer either an owner nor an operator, so that the name=* tag remains to “name the neighborhood” (or maybe “subdivision” as we might say in California parlance for such a thing) and name=Green Hills Estates remains. But there would no longer be any operator=* (which developed, built and sold the subdivision into new now individually-owned lots and homes), with a name=* tag remaining.

HOAs (and MTIPs, and “housing estates” and PUDs, and condominiums and all sorts of other ways that multi-family housing, single-unit housing sold in large-area subdivisions are broken up into lots and sold as single properties…) these activities are legally different (and somewhat complicated) the world over, given various laws and legal structures. So, I could see a variety of name=, owner= and operator=* tags (and even others) being applied. There isn’t a one-size-fits-all methodology to these, I think it best that OSM remain open-minded (and amenable to local practices) when choosing how to tag these.

Though, I do agree, seeing a “brand of a development company” is unusual. It would be unusual to see it tagged with operator=* (and maybe even owner=* in the earlier stages of sales), but it wouldn’t be wrong. What WOULD be wrong is name=Brod Home Builders applied to the landuse=residential. A name=* key shouldn’t be used there if its value is the “builder,” it should be the “name of the development” (or “neighborhood,” for lack of a better way of saying it, even as place=neighbourhood may not be quite the right tag to apply).

There are a lot of subtle things going on here, as well as different laws and practices around the world, so I can see how misunderstandings are easy to come by. Again, thanks for clarification.

I realize it was almost a year ago this diary entry was active, but I wanted to chime in that landuse=residential with a name=* tag is “sometimes” used in USA to designate a “neighborhood,” which isn’t necessarily a “homeowner’s association” (as we define this in our fifty states), but it could be. It’s a way to show that a group of often single-family homes (residences, often families, sometimes rented to groups of students or unrelated people who share rooms and residency…) are “grouped together into a geographic area and called by a name that unifies it as a known and identified community.” It might have had an identity as a HOA at one point, it doesn’t have to have had this. It’s a loosely-applied tag on (multi)polygons in urban and suburban areas. Sometimes even in small cities or even towns where you might get an “Eastside” and “Westside” residential neighborhood, but they are not admin_level=10 actual things, or political_boundary=ward or even formal place=neighbourhood, more like “that’s what we call that area of that group of houses over there.”

The tagging convention landuse=residential COULD be “apartment complex” or “subdivision” (subdivision and HOA can be similar, yet different), too. This is about as complicated as is how one admin_level=10 is totally different from another admin_level=10 somewhere else. So, it’s one tag, but it means a lot of slightly different things, while also being cohesive enough to mean “geographic grouping of dwellings.”

I have so much I could say about this (and might later), but I want to say Thank You for this truly awesome Diary entry. In addition to it being quite complete and even inspirational, it is reflective on the power (and passion!) behind and inside of OSM, largely embodied in its amazing volunteers.

Steve All, Santa Cruz, California

Fantastic post, Minh, with your usual depth, humor and aplomb. Not only is this an instructive read, it’s downright fun!

Now, what is OSM going to do about all this? As is so true of OSM, we’ve already done a lot, but there is always more: “the map is never done.” This is a great touchstone / launch-point for further efforts towards better USA boundary tagging.

I mentioned these congratulations on the talk-au list, but I’ll say them here again: very nice knock-down, Team Oz!

This is yet another example in OSM of both the initiative of what is often single individual, but ultimately turns into good teamwork / crowdsourcing. It is amazing how a passionate individual can plant a seed, then that grows to a small team and finally an entire movement! Like a prairie fire (maybe you say “bush fire” down under?) of “better map data” spreading across the landscape. What’s left isn’t a scorched earth, but a cleaner, more beautiful database!

All the way from California, USA (it’s all one planet, really), I applaud your efforts and say to others, “See?! A better map starts with you!” (And her, and him, and them, and us…and so on).

And look: whether in Columbia, Australia, California…even the entire movement of “cleaning Notes” can take off like a rocket ship in other areas of our beautiful planet (and map). Yeah!